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 Mammillaria Lau0621, marksiana ?

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PostSubject: Mammillaria Lau0621, marksiana ?   Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:40 pm




Above is a young plant which I have in the collection labeled has M. marksiana L0621 for which I have my doubts. The plant, along with 2 others, came form Bill greenaway. Bob Standley has the same plant with the same name but his seed came directly from Lau in 1988. I have seen his plant in flower and it is the same as the one above. We both belive these to be M. bocensis. These do not look like the plant of M.marksiana that is in Pilbeam's book, page 182.
The location for L0621 is given as Bacubirito, Sin. This is the same location has some of the recent Rog and PN collections of M.bocensis. The picture of the plants of M.bocensis on page 21 of AfM 31 which are from Bacubirito look very similar to the plant above and the the descrpition of PN 355, on page 27, seems to fit the plant above.
Does M.marksiana grow around Bacubirito ? I am suprised that there is no mention of M.marksiana by Rog and PN in there article. Has Lau mis-identifed the plant. Has there been a mix up with the seed when it was being collected ?
Comments would be welcomed.

Just to compare the plant below is M.marksiana L0635 from Topia, Dur.


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PostSubject: Re: Mammillaria Lau0621, marksiana ?   Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:42 pm

You surely are right that the first picture is not marksiana. But just in case, do you remeber what colour flowers it had? bocensis is supposed to have pinkish flowers, although in its neoschwarziana incarnation that pales to almost white.

Your second picture is a bit more strongly spined than my only plant (without field data) and is a lot browner in spine colour, mine being quite a yellow plant indeed, and is almost identical to the picture in Pilbeam of Lau 621.

Plein and Rogozinski say in their articles on this area that they will come to marksiana in more detail, but I haven't seen anything in recent issues. The suggestion is that there are red flowered forms of marksiana, and that it as a species might be in question - again! So your question is, I think, very timely - but I don't have any answers...

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PostSubject: Re: Mammillaria Lau0621, marksiana ?   Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:42 pm

The flower colour on Bob's plant is a pale lemon colour with a pink mid- stripe on the outside, I remembered to take a photogragh at the time. In the article in AfM 31 Rog states that the M.bocensis from around Bacubirito have yellow flowers so that fits with this.
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PostSubject: Re: Mammillaria Lau0621, marksiana ?   Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:44 pm

Sounds entirely possible to me Mark.

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PostSubject: Re: Mammillaria Lau0621, marksiana ?   Thu Jul 17, 2008 10:46 pm

I have been in touch with a number of people inculding Hunt, Plein and Bob Stanley on the subject above and would like to give an update.
I have a copy of Lau original data card and it gives the following details. Collected L621 on 30-4-73, Rancho del Pardre, Bacubirito, Sinaloa. Altitude 800m, Latitude 25/35n, Longitude 107/40w. Descirption of habitat; In deep valleys on almost vertical cliffs, mostly facing south. The mountains rise to the Sierra Madre Occidental.
The way LAU operated was to revisit the same plants, in the same habitats, every year or every few year's and with his boy's collect seed, his wife Annie would clean it, then they would sell it on to raise funds for his home for boys. In a Newsletter from June 1986 Lau writes '' During these most difficult summer months when correspondence is rare to be received, we would be especially grateful to hear from you, as in that time we shall work with 12 boys in Chihuahua, Sonora and Sinaloa, collecting seeds and suffering in the intense heat'' It appears that the seed from which this plant was grown came from this collecting trip. This collecting trip would seem to copy his original trip of 1973. The seed was received in 1987 and held over until it was sown in 1988.
I E-mailed the above photo to Plein who compared it to plants of M.bocensis from Bacubirito in his collection. It was far from conclusive, so I intend to send the plant to Plein for a better comparison. But Plein did say that the area where Lau collected Lau621 was flooded to create a reservoir. He speculates that both plants grew together and that Lau's boys collected seed (1986) of both M.marksiana and M.bocensis at the M.marksiana site and mixed up the seed and this led to it being sold has L621.
I will finish this by saying that hunt believes the M.bocensis from Bacubirito are better refered to as M.sonorensis which is the older name (1940)
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