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 Help with ID RS 414

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Jimtucker



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Registration date : 2019-12-19

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PostSubject: Help with ID RS 414   Help with ID RS 414 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 02, 2020 9:44 am

A puzzle to be solved I hope.
I have plant grown from seed last year - Field ID RS 414 named M. chica.
So far so good. However the "Cactus and Succulent Field number" site gives it as a synonym of M. stella-de-tacubaya, but it does not seem to fit into its geographical distribution. M. chica is also given as a synonym for M. grasseriana but it too seems to have a restricted area which does not match? - "Mapping the Cacti of Mexico".
Anyone suggest a proper ID?
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Chris43
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Chris43

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PostSubject: Re: Help with ID RS 414   Help with ID RS 414 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 02, 2020 11:56 am

The collection RS414 is from Cerro Bola, Coahuila. I assume that it has one hooked central spine.
I believe that M. stella-de-tacubaya is from Durango and Chihuahua and M. gasseriana (synonyms chica and viescensis) is the hooked spine species from Coahuila.
In my collection I have a variety of "names" including M. lasiacantha ssp. magallani v. hamatispina, TL103 from Coahuila, as well as RS414 . These M. gasseriana forms appear to have rather thinner and longer central spines, whereas M. stella-de-tacubaya has thicker darker centrals (though to confuse things further sometimes you'll find forms of this without any central spine!).

I believe that those responsible for "Mapping the Cacti of Mexico" used their own classification based upon that of Dr Hunt. He wrote to me that he wasn't happy about some of this, but was more involve din the mapping than the naming. At one stage M. stella-de-tacubaya was used for all hook spined forms of the Lasiacanthae plants, which is probably where the Field number site had it from.

Wolter ten Hoeve knows these species very well, and I would defer to his detailed field knowledge of these Lasiacanthae forms.

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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: Help with ID RS 414   Help with ID RS 414 Icon_minitimeThu Apr 02, 2020 9:23 pm

Photos which I have seen so far of RS 414 show a rather typical M. lasiacantha in my opinion. I have never seen a photo of RS 414 with central spines. Has anyone ever seen such central spines on his or het RS 414?
At Cerro Bola I only found such rather typical lasiacanthas, and therefore I call RS 414 M. lasiacantha. In Rogozinski's field list he calls his Rog 011 from Cerro Bola, km 191, MEX-40 also M. lasiacantha!
Reppenhagen gives as location for his M. chica: hills west of Cerro Bola Rep 1087, i.e. not Cerro Bola itself. West of Cerro Bola lies La Cuchilla, and there I found plants which I call M. gasseriana (or M. viescensis, if you like). Reppenhagen also gives Viesca as location for M. chica Rep 1093. According to Rogozinski, the location of Reppenhagen's M. chica is Venustiano Carranza, which lies just west of Viesca. Plants there (especially young ones) sometimes have central spines, i.e. the name M. chica could be applied to those plants, just like the plants which I saw southeast of Viesca. Here the young ones have slightly curved central spines. But I prefer the name M. lasiacantha instead of M. chica for these plants. M. stella-de-tacubaya grows much further west (a fairly large region, more or less the region between Nazas and Hidalgo del Parral).

Below are some relevant parts from my article about M. lasiacantha et al., which I wrote a little over 10 years ago in the JMS.
Southeast of Viesca I encountered a taxon belonging to the M. lasiacantha Group where the areoles of young plants carried one (or occasionally two) straight or slightly curved central spine (WTH 322, figures 41 and 42). In older plants this central spine was lacking completely. The number of radial spines is about 60 and higher. This taxon can be found on the less sunny side of fairly steep hills in suitable places like rock cracks. Interestingly, the seeds of the dried, shrunken fruits are partially embedded in the plant body, much more so than in the other taxa mentioned in this article (except for WTH 621, section 1.2). The seeds are typical M. lasiacantha seeds.
Based on information obtained from Rogozinski, I found similarly looking plants near Venustiano Carranza, west of Viesca (WTH 710). Young plants have hooked central spines, but older plants do not have central spines anymore. According to Rogozinski, this is the type location for M. chica described by Reppenhagen (Rogozinski, unpublished field notes 1999). Pilbeam refers M. chica to M. gasseriana Boedeker, but the WTH 322 and 710 taxa described here and the plants pictured as M. chica in Reppenhagen’s books (Rep 1093) have much more in common with M. lasiacantha in my opinion.
Northeast of Viesca, at La Cuchilla near highway 40, on the sunny side of the steep slopes of hills and mostly growing in rock cracks, a taxon (WTH 323, probably the same as ML 546, figures 43 and 44) can be found whose plants have hooked red-brown central spines, usually one, but an occasional second central spine is sometimes present. Very rarely, in a few plants the central spines are almost completely lacking. The number of the fairly slender radial spines ranges from 40 to about 80. These plants appear to form offsets, but it cannot be excluded that (some of) these offsets are actually plants which have resulted from seeds germinating close to the mother plant. In my opinion, this taxon belongs to the M. lasiacantha Group and I consider it very likely that this taxon can be identified with M. gasseriana Boedeker, which was reported from southwest Coahuila.

Near Cerro Bola, about 15 km east of La Cuchilla, a fairly typical M. lasiacantha can be found (WTH 432, ML 538, figure 46), growing on the less sunny side of steep hills. The number of radial spines is 50 or higher, central spines were not observed in habitat. The spines are sometimes slightly reddish-tipped. According to Rogozinski (2005, 2006; Rog 011) and Reppenhagen (1990, as M. chica; Rep 1087), the young plants possess a central spine, which is lacking in mature plants. I did not observe this feature on the plants that I found in habitat. If the young plants do indeed form a central spine, then it is likely that this taxon is related to WTH 322 from southeast of Viesca and to the WTH 710 taxon from Venustiano Carranza. It is also possible that the Cerro Bola WTH 432 is from a slightly different location than Rog 011 and Rep 1087.
Near El Amparo, about 15 km south of highway 40, on the sunny side of the hills in that region (preferably in rock cracks), a taxon can be found which has been described as M. viescensis by Rogozinski and Appenzeller. I found these plants at two locations near El Amparo (WTH 434 and WTH 548, figures 47, 48; ML 562 is referable here). The plants that I found near El Amparo always possessed one or sometimes two hooked red- to yellow-brown central spines.

Regards,

Wolter ten Hoeve.
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Chris43
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PostSubject: Re: Help with ID RS 414   Help with ID RS 414 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 04, 2020 3:07 pm

This is my RS414.Help with ID RS 414 Lasiac10

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mammillariamaniac

mammillariamaniac

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PostSubject: Re: Help with ID RS 414   Help with ID RS 414 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 04, 2020 8:49 pm

Hello Wolter,

thank you for you interessting report and well founded view on the topic Mammillaria chica.

Mam. lasiacantha fma. (chica) Rep 1093
Help with ID RS 414 Chica_13
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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: Help with ID RS 414   Help with ID RS 414 Icon_minitimeSat Apr 04, 2020 9:38 pm

I find it interesting what John Pilbeam writes in his 1999 Mammillaria Handbook about M. chica (on p. 322):
"There has been considerable confusion surrounding the identity of this species, not least because Reppenhagen when he described it in his first book (1987) pictured what was being grown and has subsequently been named as M. viescensis from a different Series altogether (the Stylothelae). Both come from the same area of Coahuila, near Viesca.
The plant Reppenhagen illustrates in his major work (1991) shows a hook spined immature seedling to the left of a mature plant with fruit, but with no central spines. I am of the opinion that this is referable to M. gasseriana, as now defined by Charles Glass and Fitz and Betty Fitz Maurice, and represents a variant which has no central spines, except in the seedling stage."

I expect that what Reppenhagen described in his first book, is Rep 1087 from west of Cerro Bola. That would fit with the plants which grow at La Cuchilla, which lies west of Cerro Bola, and which have a viescensis-look. What is pictured in his major books under M. chica must then be Rep 1093, from much closer to Viesca, i.e. the Venustiano Carranza location (which Rogozinski told me, was the Reppenhagen M. chica location). These plants sometimes have a central spine and otherwise look very much like normal lasiacanthas. I do have a few seed-grown plants from the Venustiano Carranza location and some of them indeed have central spines. The plant pictured by Jonathan would then indeed be M. chica, because it has the correct Rep 1093 number. If it ever produces offsets, these might have central spines at first. I observed such a thing with my seed-grown WTH 322 from southeast of Viesca: young plants have straight to slightly curved central spines, my mature plants lack central spines, but one of my mature plants has produced an offset, which again had the central spines.

All in all, as long as I haven't seen an RS 414 with central spines, the RS 414 is no more than M. lasiacantha for me.

Wolter ten Hoeve.
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mammillariamaniac

mammillariamaniac

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PostSubject: Re: Help with ID RS 414   Help with ID RS 414 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 20, 2020 11:25 am

Today I was looking into some of my books and by chance I saw a picture of the Rep 1093 in Werner Reppenhagens "Die Gattung Mammillaria nach dem heutigen Stand meines Wissens, 1987" on page 184.
The picture was taken by Reppenhagen himslef and it shows a species with offsets and it has central spines, but what kept me wondering was the flowers look different than mine Rep 1093. Is that maybe the species Pilbeam was talking about? And might it be the Rep 1087?
Sorry for the bad quality..
Help with ID RS 414 Rep10810
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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: Help with ID RS 414   Help with ID RS 414 Icon_minitimeMon Apr 20, 2020 9:43 pm

Jonathan, your message and photo are quite interesting, because what Reppenhagen shows here conforms very well to the plants which I found at La Cuchilla (i.e. west of Cerro Bola). Almost always, there are hooked centrals on the tubercles of these plants, but sometimes they are lacking. I have a plant from La Cuchilla which has produced only a few hooked centrals in its life, and another one which has hooked centrals on almost all tubercles. I call these plants M. gasseriana. The last time that I was at La Cuchilla, was in 2007 (with Fitz and Betty FitzMaurice), but to my surprise, I don't see any digital photos of these plants in my files (I have non-digital ones from previous years).
That photo in Reppenhagen's book belongs to Rep 1087, not to Rep 1093 in my opinion!

On the same trip with the FitzMaurices in 2007, we also visited the M. chica location near Venustiano Carranza, a little west of Viesca. Some photos of these plants, which should be the true M. chica (and the Rep 1093) are shown below.

Reppenhagen puts the M. chica label on Rep 1087 as well as on 1093, but this cannot be correct, because they are different species. Could it be that when Reppenhagen first published his M. chica with Rep 1087 as the type, that he later realized that his 1087 was just a form of M. gasseriana and that he then decided to use the Rep. 1093 plants as M. chica?

Wolter.    

Help with ID RS 414 Img_3513

Help with ID RS 414 Img_3512

Help with ID RS 414 Img_3511
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mammillariamaniac

mammillariamaniac

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PostSubject: Re: Help with ID RS 414   Help with ID RS 414 Icon_minitimeSat Dec 12, 2020 7:39 pm

Recently found another photo of the 'real' Mammillaria chica also the Rep1093. The photo is of Tom Twijstra, the young plant is already showing central spines. Now I have my doubts if the centrals are still coming in the future on my plant. The plant looks very similar to the habitat pictures you have shown Wolter.

http://www.mammillarias.net/photos/index.php?sfpg=TWFtbWlsbGFyaWEgQ2hpY2EvKio3Yjg4MjRmNWM4M2ZkNDQ4ODQ1OTI0MjFhYTc4MmU2MTIwOGZkZDViYjg5OTQwYWQ4NGRkN2Y5ZTdmMTcyODYw
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