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 Hooked Spines... What is it?

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paulzie32

paulzie32

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PostSubject: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeTue Mar 16, 2010 11:16 pm

Hey All,
Well, I've tried on several other message boards with only one suggestion as to the ID of this plant... That's how I found this group. I was searching the name I was given and saw a post from here and thought maybe you guys could help.

I bought this plant many years ago, unfortunately, It never got the proper light until last year (when it got sunburned down near the base) and I never watered properly until this past winter when, I withheld all water until just recently. Still no buds though, so I don't know what the flowers look like.

So, What do you guys think?
If you'd like a better picture of a particular spot, just ask. It's also not very "hydrated" right now. It was a bit smaller a few weeks ago, but recent rains have plumped it up a bit.

Hooked Spines... What is it? P1200348

Hooked Spines... What is it? P1200349
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paulzie32

paulzie32

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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeTue Mar 16, 2010 11:18 pm

Oh... Sorry.. The names that someone suggested were "Mammillaria dioica, any other Baja Mamm or Mamm. alamensis."
I searched M. dioica and found M. dioica ssp albanensis that looked close... but not quite. Maybe someone can get a closer ID.
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Chris43
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Chris43

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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeWed Mar 17, 2010 11:37 am

I think that you were advised correctly, Paul. It certainly looks like Mammillaria dioica to me. I'd forget about any subspecies, as most people just think that it is a very variable species, and the different forms (from almost round bodies in southern California to quite cylindrical as it gets down in Baja) are not sufficiently separate to justify anything more than M. dioica and a statement of where it came from. So unless you have habitat data, all I think you should say is M. dioica.
Has it flowered? it looks large and old enough to have done so?
If it has, could you say something about them, as this will help to confirm suggestions.

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paulzie32

paulzie32

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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeWed Mar 17, 2010 1:30 pm

Hey Chris, Thanks.
Unfortunately, it never has flowered as until this winter, I was never able to control myself and not water! Like all my other plants, I took the shrivelling as a need for water and was always so afraid they'd die so pretty much watered all winter... Even though I've had it for about 7-8 years now!!!
So, if it's going to bloom, it will be this year. And when it does, I'll be posting pics here Smile

So, Just M. dioica... Possibly albanensis??? Maybe? Very Happy

Thanks again

Paul
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Chris43
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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeWed Mar 17, 2010 2:26 pm

albanensis is not a name that is recognised in any of the classifications that I am familiar with, and it doesn't come up in any Google searches.
The closest I can get is dioica v. angelensis, which is a much lighter looking plant than yours. Though it does have a hooked darker spine, the other centrals and radials are much lighter, white really, and that gives the plant the look of a white column.
So if this were to be your albanensis, then no, sorry, it is simple plain old dioica!

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paulzie32

paulzie32

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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeThu Mar 18, 2010 2:19 am

SO sorry Chris,

I double checked the link where I spotted the plant I was talking about... And it's estebanensis
Here's the link.
http://www.plantascrasas.com/imagenes/cactaceas/mammillaria/mammillaria-dioica-estebanensis.jpg
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Chris43
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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeThu Mar 18, 2010 9:57 am

I should have thought of that, Paul, Sad

One of the distinguishing features of M. estebanensis, according to Lindsay, is that it has just one central spine...and its radial spines are chestnut or gold to start with...and its white flower has light green stigma lobes. The plant has a generally more yellow look to it. Mammillaria dioica has up to 4 central spines, the lower one hooked and more typically yellow stigma lobes.

Now your plant has more than a single central spine, from what I can see, on some areoles I think 3 or 4, and is a duller colour overall. I'm also not 100% sure about the photo in your link to be honest.....

But just as dioica is variable, I'd expect estebanensis to be variable, so it is difficult to make absolute judgements...

In one classification, that of Dr David Hunt and following him in the New Cactus Lexicon, both angelensis and estebanensis are merged under dioica anyway. I think they can be distinguished, so prefer to keep them as subspecies at worst, as I think they are separate, whilst acknowledging that they are quite closely related.

Here's a photo composite of two of my youngish plants, Mammillaria estebanensis WK567 from Isla San Esteban, and Mammillaria dioica SB1691 from Cerro Colorado, just east of San Ignacio. Take your pick!!

Hooked Spines... What is it? Esteba10

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paulzie32

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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeThu Mar 18, 2010 12:51 pm

Hmmm... the color of your M. dioica looks closer to the one that other site labeled as M. dioica ssp estebanensis than your M. dioica ssp estebanensis does Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_smile There are so many incorrectly labeled plants online. Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_rolleyes

But I went and checked the centrals on mine. There are usually 3 (sometimes only 2 and maybe 4) and two are hooked, one up and one down... in most cases.
I'd be happy to send you one of the offsets. Maybe you would have better luck with it in your hands. And you seem to collect them Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_wink IF it's the same as your M. dioica, you can gift it. If it's different, you'll have another type.
Would the offset root easily enough? Maybe they even have roots.
P.M. me your address.
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paulzie32

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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeWed May 12, 2010 2:00 am

Ok.... Well, I went home today and got some pictures of my M. dioica. So, Chris? Tam? Anyone? Can any of you ID this based on the flowers?
Does it help or no?
I'm guessing they don't all have just male or female flowers... Or is it maybe not M. dioica but a hybrid of some type?
Hooked Spines... What is it? P1200474
Hooked Spines... What is it? P1200474-1
Hooked Spines... What is it? P1200475
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ento



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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeWed May 12, 2010 11:35 am

I believe it is m. duoformis
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Tam

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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeWed May 12, 2010 2:30 pm

I believe Ento is in the correct area. I would say something in Series Polyacanthae. It could be duoformis but with that flower tube I would go with rekoi rekoi. One of the forms called ' albrechtiana ' comes to mind.
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walter hellinx



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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeWed May 12, 2010 4:52 pm

Duoformis it is, sold as spec.Tenango de Valle, allso comes with white flowers.
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paulzie32

paulzie32

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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeThu May 13, 2010 3:13 am

Thanks Guys! i REALLY appreciate this! So, Walter, is Tenango de Valle a hybrid or just a location where it's from?
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Chris43
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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeMon May 17, 2010 11:20 am

I am shame faced about going the estebanensis avenue. Seeing the flowers, I totally agree agree with Walter.

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paulzie32

paulzie32

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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeMon May 17, 2010 2:18 pm

Nonsense Chris! That's why flowers are used in identification Smile Many cactus have similar spination. After seeing M. dioica, I thought it could be too... As did several other people on another forum... so you are not alone.
When I saw the flower, it didn't look like any of the flowers I saw on M. dioica and that's why I posted it.!

So, You're back from the Isles? How was your trip? Any Cactus photos? Still waiting for pics from Mexico too... I'm hoping you're going to work on them soon Smile
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Chris43
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PostSubject: Re: Hooked Spines... What is it?   Hooked Spines... What is it? Icon_minitimeMon May 17, 2010 9:27 pm

I'll be sorting out som ephotos from my Mexico trip over the next week - it seems there is a lot else to do after nearly a month away!

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