Mammillaria Forum

Discussion Forum about Mammillaria, Coryphantha and Escobaria
 
HomeHome  GalleryGallery  FAQFAQ  SearchSearch  RegisterRegister  Log in  

Share | 
 

 Have you seen anything like this?

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
Amante
special poster
special poster
avatar

Number of posts : 79
Age : 54
Location : Malta
Registration date : 2008-09-18

PostSubject: Have you seen anything like this?   Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:15 pm

This picture was taken at Enpalme near Guaymas, Sonora. Can you notice what is odd with this species? From the data base I have of field data, I gather that this is Mammillaria swinglei but it does not look like the swinglei I have in cultivation. Another candidate would be M. dioica , but this species does not seem to reach this far South. study





Well, if you did not notice anything strange, take a closer look at the fruit.

Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hugo

avatar

Number of posts : 576
Age : 61
Location : Hamme, Belgium
Registration date : 2008-07-15

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:55 pm

Yes, very odd fruit. It happens from times to times on some cacti. Sometimes there are flower buds developping on the fruit....
It does look like the swinglei Rep 210 I have in my collection, and this specie is from Guayamas too.

_________________
Hugo admin
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://mammillaria.forumotion.net
Amante
special poster
special poster
avatar

Number of posts : 79
Age : 54
Location : Malta
Registration date : 2008-09-18

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:22 pm

Thanks Ugo. I have seen flowers at this location and they look yellowish like that of dioica. Do you know the type of flower on Rep 210?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hugo

avatar

Number of posts : 576
Age : 61
Location : Hamme, Belgium
Registration date : 2008-07-15

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Wed Sep 24, 2008 6:49 pm


_________________
Hugo admin
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://mammillaria.forumotion.net
Amante
special poster
special poster
avatar

Number of posts : 79
Age : 54
Location : Malta
Registration date : 2008-09-18

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Wed Sep 24, 2008 7:50 pm

Yes, They look the same except for the flower. Have a look at this from the same location. As you may have noticed yourself, sometimes species in habitat are so variable that one wonders if he is looking at one species or more.


Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hugo

avatar

Number of posts : 576
Age : 61
Location : Hamme, Belgium
Registration date : 2008-07-15

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:15 pm

I had have one with flowers like that, it was named "inaiae", another forma from the sheldonii group .

_________________
Hugo admin
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://mammillaria.forumotion.net
Amante
special poster
special poster
avatar

Number of posts : 79
Age : 54
Location : Malta
Registration date : 2008-09-18

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:28 pm

Do you know where 'inaiae' grows?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hugo

avatar

Number of posts : 576
Age : 61
Location : Hamme, Belgium
Registration date : 2008-07-15

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:46 pm

According to Craig's Mammillaria Handbook: Sonora, San Carlos Bay near Guyama.
The flowers should be grass-green, whitish green narrow margins.
I think this fits well to your plant pictured.

_________________
Hugo admin
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://mammillaria.forumotion.net
Amante
special poster
special poster
avatar

Number of posts : 79
Age : 54
Location : Malta
Registration date : 2008-09-18

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:00 am

Thanks again. I agree it must be the same species in Craig's book. San Carlos is a 'stone's throw' from Guaymas. I have Craig's book but it did not occur to me to search there. I am more convinced that it is not M. swinglei (or sheldonii), although there is similarity in body shape.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Hugo

avatar

Number of posts : 576
Age : 61
Location : Hamme, Belgium
Registration date : 2008-07-15

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Sun Sep 28, 2008 5:23 pm

I am also convinced that your plant is "inaiae" and not swinglei. In my opinion this is a plant between swinglei ( same body) and dioica ( almost the same flowers).

_________________
Hugo admin
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://mammillaria.forumotion.net
Amante
special poster
special poster
avatar

Number of posts : 79
Age : 54
Location : Malta
Registration date : 2008-09-18

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:46 pm

I came to the same conclusion Hugo. M. dioca is not very far away to the North and across to Baja California and swinglei has been found in the same area.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Chris43
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Number of posts : 1618
Age : 74
Location : Chinnor, UK
Registration date : 2008-07-16

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Mon Sep 29, 2008 10:35 pm

Would you think a natural hybrid, or a distinct species sharing common predecessors with both dioica and swinglei?

_________________
Chris43, moderator
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.woodedge.me.uk/index.html
Hugo

avatar

Number of posts : 576
Age : 61
Location : Hamme, Belgium
Registration date : 2008-07-15

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:02 am

Another picture and form of M. swinglei, that I found in my files. The flowers are paler than the one on the first picture.


_________________
Hugo admin
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://mammillaria.forumotion.net
Amante
special poster
special poster
avatar

Number of posts : 79
Age : 54
Location : Malta
Registration date : 2008-09-18

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:08 pm

Chris, I would say that it is a distinct species sharing a common predecessors. The reason is that if it was a hybrid there would have been one or two flowers of a hybrid species in the same location and although I only have one picture with one in flower at Empalme, I have another one from Guaymas proper bearing same type of flower. So it seems that this flower is common to most of these cacti from this area. But I must say that further research would have to be done.

Hugo, your species is what I believe to be a typical swinglei. M. swinglei sensu stricto in my collection do not offset unlike sheldonii, even though they are 18 years old. Does yours offset?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Chris43
Moderator
Moderator
avatar

Number of posts : 1618
Age : 74
Location : Chinnor, UK
Registration date : 2008-07-16

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:42 am

That seems very sensible, Amante, although sometimes you can get a natural hybrid that survives the changing conditions better than either of its parents in a particular locality. But then it is almost impossible to say whether its natural evolution or hybridisation witout detail DNA tests, and that may not yet be good enought o answer the question.
I have a white flowered swinglei, HK277 which when I asked John Pilbeam about it, he said they were all sheldonii, and varied from pink to white to yellow...

However, maybe we now know more....

_________________
Chris43, moderator
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.woodedge.me.uk/index.html
Hugo

avatar

Number of posts : 576
Age : 61
Location : Hamme, Belgium
Registration date : 2008-07-15

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:19 pm

Hello Amante,

Unlike M. sheldonii, my M. swinglei does not offset, even they have about the same age and length.

And off course Chris, for Pilbeam it's all sheldonii. Otherwise he was not a lumper. Very Happy .
Swinglei differs from sheldonii with: bristles in the axils, not offsetting and other flower colour

_________________
Hugo admin
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://mammillaria.forumotion.net
Amante
special poster
special poster
avatar

Number of posts : 79
Age : 54
Location : Malta
Registration date : 2008-09-18

PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:07 pm

I thought bristles in axils was one of the main characteristics for distinguishing between Mammillaria species.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Have you seen anything like this?   

Back to top Go down
 
Have you seen anything like this?
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Mammillaria Forum :: MAIN SECTION :: General Questions-
Jump to: