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 Mammillaria lindsayi

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ChrisDavies



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PostSubject: Mammillaria lindsayi   Mammillaria lindsayi Icon_minitimeWed Jul 23, 2008 10:15 pm

This should be the real lindsayi ( described by Craig ) and not the one that Lau have found (L 1134 and L 1135 ). Lau's foundings have nothing to do with lindsayi. I hope to tell you more about it soon if I get the permission to translate and publish an article about this matter.

Mammillaria lindsayi 2m63dyw

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PostSubject: Re: Mammillaria lindsayi   Mammillaria lindsayi Icon_minitimeWed Jul 23, 2008 10:17 pm

I have been in correspondence with another mamm grower here in the Uk. We have been discussing the plants of series Mammillaria that grow up in the north of Sinaloa, in and around the Barranca de Cobre and espically M.lindsayi. He made the following comments to me which I thought I would share.
'' M.lindsayi Craig was hunted down by the Schumachers at the type locality at Molinos. Spenkoch in AfM 28 (3&4) 2004 made some rather brave speculative suggestions
The Schumachers wrote that they had to find out whether the Rio Watchera mentioned by Craig was an old name for the Rio Fuerte. It seems they received postive information on the spot (JMS 44(3) 2004). They also said if the information was not correct and for instance the Rio Guachara was meant then they did not know the river or the plants growing there.
Craig gave the type location as Molinos to Colorado, 10-15 miles NE of the junction of the Rio Chinipas and the Rio Fuerte at Lat.27/10, Long 108/15. Craig also said ''several variations of the type material were collected by Mr George Lindsay and the author in April 1939 in the immediate vicinity of the type localtiy and along the Rio Watchera''
Since Craig explicitly quoted the Rio Fuerte, it is unlikely that he would later on call it the Rio Watchera. If Craig and Lindsay had explored the wider eastern region around La Reforma they would of said so. The Rio Guachara is only about 5 miles north of the confluence of the Rio Chinipas and the Rio Fuerte and the village of Colorado de Orozco. I belive Plein has already accepted this as probable
Further more in the ''Gentry's Rio Mayo plants'' University of Arizona Press, Tucson, the following passage is found - San Bernardo had been recommended to him by the renowned geographer Carl Sauer, who urged him to find and study the Guarijios THAT GENTRY SPELLED USING ENGLISH RATHER THAN SPANISH PHONETICS. Gentry used the English way of writing later in his folklore works about the Guarijio Indians and the other native tribes of Sonora an Chihuahua. The suspicion is (remember Craig described the Rio Mayo plants of Gentry), that Craig also used the English phonetics regarding the Rio Guchara and called it the Rio Watchera.
This opens up a whole new field of investigation. Many of the different forms of M. lindsayi at the time (1939) were along the Rio Watchera. The chances are they have never been investigated since. Since the river flows approximately north to south it could be important. The head of the river is much nearer the railway line. It would be nice to know what variation of plants lie along the river. It could be part of the final solution to the problem''
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Chris43

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PostSubject: Re: Mammillaria lindsayi   Mammillaria lindsayi Icon_minitimeWed Jul 23, 2008 10:18 pm

This is very interesting indeed. I remember reading in Craig recently and was surprised ta the Watchera name, as the letter W is almost never used in Spanish, but thought it might be an Indian word. But since a "gua" in spanish is pronouced quite similarly to a gutteral "wha", then I think that your posting has got it right.
Looking at Rogozinski's Field list on the AfM web site, the locations he gives for Rog679 to Rog687 include Rio Guachara. So I woud expect that we will see the new "lindsayi" properly described by Rog and Plein shortly.
The photo that started this thread off does look very much like the photo in Craig, and looks like being of Rog687, which isn't at all like the plants that I have as lindsayi, and which I guess I should now rename them as sinforosensis.

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PostSubject: Re: Mammillaria lindsayi   Mammillaria lindsayi Icon_minitimeWed Jul 23, 2008 10:20 pm

The plant in the picture above is Rog 687, M.lindsayi. In the Rog fieldlist the location for this plant is given has La Reforma, Chihuahua. The only La Reforma I can find is on the other side of the country in Nuevo Leon. Has Rogozinski made a mistake when writting up his notes or is there a small town / village called La Reforma in Chihuahua which could possiblty be to small to appear on the maps.
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ChrisDavies



Number of posts : 576
Age : 76
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PostSubject: Re: Mammillaria lindsayi   Mammillaria lindsayi Icon_minitimeWed Jul 23, 2008 10:21 pm

Actually there are 6 small villages who called Reforma in Chihuahua. The one that Rogozinski meant was Reforma near Arroyo.

Source: http://www.fallingrain.com/world/MX/6/a/R/e/

Think I found the location, mark

Mammillaria lindsayi 167ry2a

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PostSubject: Re: Mammillaria lindsayi   Mammillaria lindsayi Icon_minitimeWed Jul 23, 2008 10:22 pm

Thanks Hugo, thats a great help
you are about correct and I have found an article in the UK Mamm society Journal, May 2004, page 24, which has a map.
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