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 Should I change the ID?

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David48



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PostSubject: Should I change the ID?   Fri Apr 21, 2017 1:19 pm

Should I change the ID of this Mammillaria? I bought it as Mammillaria carmanae, but it has flowered with bright pink flowers. I understand that camanae should have white flowers, and a pink flowering form commonly found is really a hybrid with laui. Should I change the ID to carmanae x laui?

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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:46 pm

It certainly has nice flowers, and it really looks very pretty, but what it is, I don't dare to say. The colour, shape and size of the flowers don't look like carmenae flowers. The spination also differs from carmenae, somewhat more laui-like, but the flowers don't look like laui flowers either, they seem too large for laui. I would not change the ID to carmenae x laui, because that's too speculative.
If the plant is self-fertile, you might try to raise plants from the seeds. Those seedlings might give an indication of their grandparents.

Wolter ten Hoeve.
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David48



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:55 am

Thank you. I think I should just use "Mammillaria carmanae hybrid". I'm a bit disappointed that its ID is uncertain, I thought I had bought a true carmanae. I have now ordered a new carmanae so I will have three, orange spined white (cream) flowers, the new plant advertised as having white (cream) flowers, and thirdly the one posted here with pink flowers.

I am not disappointed in the beautiful bouquet of flowers produced by the hybrid.
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PVV1962

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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:42 pm

Mammillaria carmenae L 1363 Novillo, Tamaulipas, Mexico, 1600m,
Hello!
Sorry for the intrusion. Light-yellowish thorn, pinkish flowers. Very similar to the plant of David.
I do not have a photo.
If the source is from a supermarket, then this is a commonplace hybrid. If from the nursery, then it's worth braking the supplier.
PVV.
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David48



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:11 pm

It was bought from a seller at the Mammillaria Society national show, but I don't know the name of the seller.
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PVV1962

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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:48 pm

David. With the sellers, everything is clear. Sad .
Make photo of spines close-up, side view.
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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Sun Apr 30, 2017 12:14 pm

I have two old seed-grown plants of M. carmenae Lau 1363, sown in 1996. Seeds came from the DeHerdt nursery in Belgium, which got many plants and seeds directly from Alfred Lau. The two plants look very different, one of them has white spines, the other one yellow, also the spine arrangement is very different. Both have pinkish flowers. I will post a photo when they are in flower.

Lau says the following of Lau 1363: grows at 1600 meters, white spines, seldom yellowish.
Of M. carmenae Lau 1223 he writes: La Reja, 800 - 900 meters.
Michel Lacoste also found M. carmenae ML 123, he writes that it grows at 1900 meters.
I think that these altitudes are inaccurate. Nowadays they can be measured much more accurately. I found M. carmenae at La Reja (rancho El Tejocote), and there it grows at 1600 - 1630 meters. Friends told me that there is another, even more difficultly accessible location (and probably somewhat lower). Plants there look exactly like the M. carmenae at rancho El Tejocote.
I have never heard of anyone else but Lau finding Lau 1363 in this region. Therefore, Lau 1363 remains a mystery to me, and I assume that it is a hybrid.

Wolter.
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David48



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:02 pm

Thank you. A beautiful hybrid, then.
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PVV1962

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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Mon May 01, 2017 12:13 pm

Very interesting conversation. I have several mammillaries that did not pass the "control post." I isolated them and continue to admire.
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David48



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Mon May 01, 2017 6:24 pm

I continue to admire my dark pink flowering hybrid, but I have purchased what I believe to be a pure bred white/cream carmanae. It arrived this week complete with a ring of flowers. PVV1962 suggested a photo of the spines of the hybrid. I have now taken this photo. Attached two photos, the hybrid and my new white flowered specimen. :-)

url=https://servimg.com/view/19530710/46][/url]





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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Mon May 01, 2017 7:16 pm

David, your last photo looks good for carmenae. On the Maurillio pages (Mammillarias A-Z) (http://mammillaria.forumotion.net/t1058-mammillaria-carmenae) you can find a few more photos.
I have attached two habitat photos from my March 2017 visit to the natural location (very tough hike). M. carmenae in the first photo was in a more shady position than carmenae in photo 2.

Wolter ten Hoeve.



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David48



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Mon May 01, 2017 9:18 pm

Thank you. Nice to see habitat pictures.
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David48



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Tue May 02, 2017 3:25 pm

I have another Mammillaria carmanae, orange spined with white flowers. An additional question of ID comes to mind, is the orange spined form a natural variation or is it a hybrid also?

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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Tue May 02, 2017 6:44 pm

Slightly orange spined carmenaes can be found in nature, but they are really an exception. I only found the yellow spined ones, but Marlies Schauer found a slightly orange spined carmenae at antoher location about 7 years ago. You can find her article (in German, but with an English translation) on http://www.mammillaria.eu/Probeartikel/Probeartikel_4_2011.pdf.
The article gives a good impression of the difficulties one has to overcome in order to reach the carmenae location.

Wolter ten Hoeve.
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David48



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Tue May 02, 2017 10:47 pm

Thank you for the link. A most interesting read. I like M rubrograndis as well!
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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Wed May 17, 2017 11:47 am

Here are two photos of my old Lau 1363 plant, grown from DeHerdt seed in 1996. My other, differently looking Lau 1363, is not yet in flower.`

Wolter ten Hoeve.



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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Mon Jun 05, 2017 5:52 pm

And here is my other seed-grown Lau 1363 (also sown in 1996).

Wolter.
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Chris43
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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:02 pm

I have always thought that M carmenae should only have white/cream flowers because.....

From http://www.arides.info/cactus2004.htm
Le Docteur LAU éminent botaniste est venu tous spécialement du Belize grâce à la complicité de Joêl Lodé pour nous présenter deux conférences captivantes sur ces travaux en Améique du sud. C'est Joël Lodé qui a assuré la traduction, le Dorteur LAU s'exprimant en espagnol. Tout au long des deux présentations, il nous a enchanté par ses commentaires, sans aucune note, se souvenant de tout, toujours souriant et restant toujours debout malgré son age. Le Docteur LAU nous a entre autre raconté une anecdote au sujet d'une collecte de graines effectuée il y a bien longtemps sur des Mammillaria carmenae. Par mégarde il les avait alors mélangées quelques graines de Mammillaria Lauii dont les fleurs sont roses. Certes ces deux Mammillaria se ressemble beaucoup mais cette petite méprise a généré une erreur qui au fil des ans a amené bon nombre d'entre nous à collectionner les deux variantes de Mammillaria carmenae, l'une à fleurs beiges et l'autre à fleurs roses. Le Docteur LAU nous l'a bien confirmé, si nous sommes dans l'erreur, il nous faut renommer convenablement nos plantes, Mammillaria carmenae pour celles à fleurs beiges et Mammillaria lauii pour celles à fleurs roses…

The eminent botanist Dr Lau has come especially from Belize thanks to the help of Joel Lode to give us two captivating talks on his work in South America. Joel Lode translated, as Doctor Lau spoke  in Spanish. Right through the two talks, he enchanted us with his commentary, totally without notes, remembering everything, always smiling and staying upright despite his age. Dr Lau also told us an anecdote about a seed collection he made a while ago of Mammillaria carmenae. By mistake he mixed some seeds of Mammillaria lauii whose flowers are pink. These two Mammillaria look quite similar, but this little mistake has generated a real error that after some years has led to a good number of us collecting two variants of Mammillaria carmenae, one with cream flowers the other with pink. Dr Lau confirmed to us, in case we were mistaken, that we should rename our plants, as appropriate, with Mammillaria carmenae for those with cream flowers and Mammillaria lauii for those with pink flowers....

But now I am not sure!

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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: Should I change the ID?   Mon Jun 05, 2017 6:20 pm

Thanks Chris for bringing up this note!
Although Lau writes in his field list that he found his carmenae L 1363 (white, seldom yellowish spines, purplish flowers, 1600 meters) in Novillo, I suspect that he has actually mixed up carmenae and laui seeds, and subsequently cross-pollinated the seedlings (or nurseries did that). The seeds resulting from those cross-pollinations have then gone on the market as Lau 1363.
Anyhow, as far as I am concerned, Lau 1363 is of hybrid origin.

Wolter.
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