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 A riddle for me, Mam Bucavensis Mal 107-Z 597

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Jpsje

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PostSubject: A riddle for me, Mam Bucavensis Mal 107-Z 597   Sun May 17, 2015 6:34 pm

Dear friends.
On a old label i see the name, Mam. Bucavensis-MAL107/Z107
I can't find any information about that.
I hope someone can help me, for further info.
Thanks again for your experise !!
greetings,
Joseph
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Jpsje

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PostSubject: Re: A riddle for me, Mam Bucavensis Mal 107-Z 597   Sun May 17, 2015 6:36 pm

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delandmo



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PostSubject: Re: A riddle for me, Mam Bucavensis Mal 107-Z 597   Fri May 22, 2015 10:10 pm

Hi,
I wonder if your plant, which I believe to be m. magnimamma, started out as m. bucareliensis and the name over time has been misspelled by it's previous owner/owners. This name goes back to 1945 and is now lumped into m. magnimamma. It was reported to come from Bucarel, Guanajuato, Mexico.
The numbering may just be a seed list number or the original growers own reference number.
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Jpsje

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PostSubject: Re: A riddle for me, Mam Bucavensis Mal 107-Z 597   Fri May 22, 2015 10:36 pm

Hello Delandmo !
Thanks for your information.
The last info I become. The numbering is from a seedlist ! So you are correct!
So thank you again Delandmo for your expertise !
Greetings'
Joseph
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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: A riddle for me, Mam Bucavensis Mal 107-Z 597   Fri May 22, 2015 10:37 pm

The abbreviation MAL is used by the Dutch Succulenta in their annual seed list for their mammillarias. If you are able to find the old Succulenta lists, and look at the names which are behind MAL 107, you may be able to find a name that corresponds with the looks of your plant. Just like Delandmo, I would guess that your plant has originally been labelled as M. bucareliensis. Your plant certainly has some features of M. bucareliensis (itself a dubious name).

Wolter ten Hoeve.
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Jpsje

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PostSubject: Re: A riddle for me, Mam Bucavensis Mal 107-Z 597   Fri May 22, 2015 10:52 pm

Goedenavond Wolter.
Thanks also for your information and expertise.
It's now 100% clear for me. Someone would send me an old seedlist from Succulenta.
So I would thank you for your further information.
Greetings
Joseph
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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: A riddle for me, Mam Bucavensis Mal 107-Z 597   Sat May 23, 2015 9:35 am

Hi Joseph (en goedemorgen),

Last evening I scanned through some of the old Succulenta seedlists and I soon found what I wanted. M. bucavensis is listed in the December 1996 seed list. No further data are given, only that the seed came from hobbyists. Apparently someone had plants with that name in his greenhouse.
The next thing I did was to have a look in the so-called nomina nuda lists of the German Mammillaria Society, and guess what: bingo! M. bucavensis is listed in there, and what the author (Othmar Appenzeller) writes is the following: The name M. bucavensis is mentioned in the journal Dodanaeus in 1966 (issue 4/4) under a list of available seeds (as number 122). No further data there, but Appenzeller adds that the name M. bucavensis is nowhere else listed and he assumes that the name is a writing error for M. bucareliensis, the more so, because number 123 of the same list is M. bucareliensis var. bicornuta. Appenzeller concludes that M. bucavensis is no more than a catalogue name and should be considered a nomen nudum.

Groeten,

Wolter.
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delandmo



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PostSubject: Re: A riddle for me, Mam Bucavensis Mal 107-Z 597   Sat May 23, 2015 11:28 am

Good find Wolter. Nice to have my suspicions confirmed.

Thanks Derek.
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Jpsje

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PostSubject: Re: A riddle for me, Mam Bucavensis Mal 107-Z 597   Sat May 23, 2015 11:44 am

Goedemiddag Wolter.
Thanks for this great research and your story about that !!!very interesting!! Great bingo for you !
This is complete new for me.My opinion this plant is from 1996 (the size from the plant)
I understand 122 + 123.But what do you think...the plant i have is an Bucareliensis var. Bicornuta ?? or an Bucareliensis n.n ??
Thanks again Wolter, tnx for the great research !
Joseph
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woltertenhoeve



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PostSubject: Re: A riddle for me, Mam Bucavensis Mal 107-Z 597   Sat May 23, 2015 9:53 pm

Hallo Joseph,

I would keep the plant labelled as M. bucavensis! M. bucareliensis is a doubtful name in my opinion, and the variety bicornuta is even more doubtful.
During this spring I went along the road from Bucareli uphill to the main paved road, and in my trip report I have written the following words, which might make clear my reasons for dismissing M. bucareliensis as a separate species:  
"The road went uphill and we passed Puerto del Derramadero. Here we found a few clumps of M. compressa WTH 1087 (near the junction of a side-road), as well as a nicely flowering echinocereus.
Reppenhagen has reported M. bucareliensis from Bucareli. In his 2-volume book he writes that he found this species (Rep 1721) on rocks in the middle of Bucarel (which should be Bucareli) at 2200 m. However, at present there are no rocks in Bucareli and this village lies at around 1100 m instead of 2200 m. In his field list Reppenhagen writes “deep barranca; at the edge of the village; at 1700 m”. Something must be completely wrong here. Did Reppenhagen confuse Bucareli with Puerto del Derramadero? That would fit much better with his stated altitudes and descriptions. In addition, Rogozonski mentions M. bucareliensis Rog 569 in his field list with Puerto del Derramadero as location and 2150 m as altitude. In his trip report he states that he also found M. compressa at the same location, which is close to my location of what I call M. compressa. The Rogozinski location is at a distance of 400 m from my location, yet, about 200 m above my location, but along the same road and in a similar region. Michel Lacoste reports M. bucareliensis ML 485 from Puerto del Derramadero at 2200 m. He also reports M. compressa ML 486, at an altitude of 1710 m, along the same road, but on the downhill stretch to Bucareli. My compressa location lies in between ML 485 and ML 486. From these data, I conclude that the plants from this region are one and the same species, with some minor variations. I call them M. compressa."
The attachment shows a photo of one of the compressas that I found near Puerto del Derramadero (it was the nicest plant, there were some others, among them a very large clump, but their spination was less impressive).

Wolter.

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Jpsje

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PostSubject: Re: A riddle for me, Mam Bucavensis Mal 107-Z 597   Sat May 23, 2015 10:12 pm

Wolter,
Wowww what a intersting story do you have ! It must be a beautiful trip for you !
This is a lot of information for me, and i keep the label as M. bucavensis. Thanks for the photo.
I wish, in your next trip, a lot of new founds there !
Thanks again for your help, expertise, and research !
Best regards,
Joseph
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