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 Mammillaria hahniana var. werdermanniana

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maurillio



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PostSubject: Mammillaria hahniana var. werdermanniana   Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:56 pm

Mammillaria hahniana var. werdermanniana Schmoll ex R.T.Craig 1945.

This is what i have found in the "Journal":
Volume II ..... Number 2 April, 1962


The description of Mammillaria hahniana.....

No. 11. Mammillaria hahiana Werdermann.
Mammillaria hahniana Werdermann, Monatschr. Deutsch Kakt. Ges; 27, 1929.

Roots: Fibrous.
Body: Mostly caespitose, slightly flattened globose, with slightly sunken apex, heads to 9 cm. high, 10 cm. wide. Tubercles closely set in 13 and 21 spirals, light green, conical, almost terete to slightly triangular at apex, rounded dorsally, keeled ventrally, with very milky sap, 5 - 6 mm. long 2 - m mm. wide at base. Areoles oval, hardly 1 mm. wide with white wool at apex, later with brownish mat, later becoming naked.
Axils with short white wool and a tuft of 20 or more long white hairlike tortuous bristles of uneven length to 35 - 40 mm. long
Spines: Centrals, present only in young growth, older ones missing as they are easily dislodged; 1 (2 - 5), 4 (5 - Cool mm long, straight acicular, smooth, somewhat thickened at base, whitish transparent below, reddish brown at very tip, porrect or divergent dorsally and ventrally.
Radials 20-30, 5 - 15 mm. long, very fine hair-like, soft, tortuous, white, extending almost laterally, interlacing with approximating.ones and axillary hairs, horizontal to somewhat ascending.
Flowers: Funnelform, 15 - 20 mm. wide, July, open for several days.
Outer perianth segments greenish yellow below, purplish above, greenish white margins, dark brown ventral midstripe; linear-lanceolate, tip acute, margins coarsely ciliate to almost lacerate, 6 - 8 mm long. Inner * perianth segments purplish-red, margins transparent, linear-lanceolate,
tip mucronate to almost acuminate, margins mostly entire. Filaments white below, purple above. Anthers cream; style white. Stigma lobes ' 3 - 5 yellowish white.
Fruit: Reddish purple, oval 7 x 4 mm. with dried perianth persisting.
Seeds: Dull dirty brown, pyriform with lateral hilum, pitted 1.5 xlmm.
Distribution: Guanajuato and Queretaro, Mexico.
Type Locality: None given but reported from Sierra de Jalapa and Ocotitlan




Mammillaria hahniana var. werdermanniana Schmoll ex R.T.Craig 1945.

Axillary hairs to 25 mm. long, stigma lobes brownish pink, tubercles, more angled. Outer perianth.segments short ciliate.
Distribution: Guanajuato, Mexico. Type Locality not known.
Notes: There is some uncertainty about the limits of this species.
Apart from the named variations described above, M. hahniana appears to be closely related to M. brauneana and to MM. bravoae and quevedoi which are sometimes considered to be synonymous. All these plants certainly appear distinct - as far as their appearance is concerned and few intermediate specimens are seen. A possible hypothesis is that all the species and
varieties in this group are part of a series, but the relative absence of intergrading forms would tend to dispute this. ,
It is interesting to note that specimens as well furnished with hair as that shown in our photograph are comparatively rare. Whether this is due to poor seed production in this type or to different cultural methods nowadays leading to poorer growth of hair is an interesting speculation.





In the gallery mammillaria A-Z in this forum, I present Mammillaria hahniana var. werdermanniana as I have found in various collections.
Many of these pictures differ significantly between them.
I can only propose the forms I met, hoping to do a bit of clarity thanks to your skilled work ....


mammillaria hahniana var werdermanniana from prof. Carlo Zanovello greenhouse




mammillaria hahniana var werdermanniana from prof. Carlo Zanovello greenhouse





mammillaria hahniana var werdermanniana from "ento" collection





mammillaria hahniana var werdermanniana from "giuseppe ruini" collection

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PostSubject: Re: Mammillaria hahniana var. werdermanniana   Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:36 pm

Very interesting.......

I guess that I should really muddy the water by mentioning M. saetigera, which in Germany is regarded as the real species which we have regarded as M. hahniana. The "hahniana" with long axillary hairs is, many believe, nothing more than a local form of M. klissingiana, and cite the size and closeness of the tubercles as a key indicator. I do not know if this is right or not. However, the description above says the width of the tubercle is 2mm at its base, and surely the size of those of any of the plants shown are a lot more. This would seem to support the German point of view. One can argue about names for ever, it seems.

The plants that you show from prof. Carlo Zanovello's collection look very close to what I have thought of as M. bravoe (hahniana ssp. bravoe or sateigera ssp bravoe). Those from Ento's collection do not, but on a closer look the differences are mainly the length of the radial spines and the amount of axillary wool. This might be a cultural effect, or just some natural variation. Neither of them appear to have long axillary bristles or hairs.

When Craig was writing in the 1940's, the level of exploration in Mexico was not as great as it is now. The relative lack (as quoted) of intermediate forms was probably just that no-one had collected them or made Craig aware of them. Communications were much more limited and slower than today, of course.

I don't think that the ssp. werdemanniana has much substance as a valid subspecies, if the main differences are a different stigma and more angled tubercles, with darker outer petals. It would be invalid anyway without a defined location. I'd prefer to ignore it.

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PostSubject: Re: Mammillaria hahniana var. werdermanniana   Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:19 pm

Thank you very much, Chris, for giving me your attention.
I'm often going to see old collections and I like to talk with those who cultivate 40 or more years. It is in these collections, that arise comparisons between the old way of finding and selling plants and the current one.
There is so much difference, I think, because the knowledge and the territory are much greater today.
What I find in these old collections (and in Italy there are so many), it carried entirely in my gallery, running the risk of not being modern correct.
For me it is important to document this research.
Delandmo wrote some time ago that some plants are presented only commercial names and others are just old names.
It 's true, but maybe it's also nice for those who use this gallery to find documented everything as much as possible.
We have space in this forum to clarify doubts and correct errors or much better to increase the knowledge of each of us through spirited discussions.

According to what was said before I understand your "ignore" M. werdermanniana.
At the same time is justified its presence in the gallery.
We have a great number of these plants in our collections.
It is nice that this presence to be accompanied by this discussion
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PostSubject: Re: Mammillaria hahniana var. werdermanniana   Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:45 pm

That is fine by me, Maurizio, I agree that it is interesting to see plants with these "old" names One never knows, the botanists who decide what is "right" and what is "wrong" also may not have a complete picture

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