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 2 odd ones to Id

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SnowFella



Number of posts : 22
Location : Sydney, Australia
Registration date : 2011-03-01

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PostSubject: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeThu Sep 15, 2011 12:08 pm

I've got 2 to me odd plants happily growing away that I'd love an ID of, both did come with speices tags from a cactii nursery but just differ so much in spines from what I would expect to see that I can't trust the labels.

1: Came with a Mammillaria spinosissima label but has hooked centrals.
2 odd ones to Id Dsc00368mn

2: Came with a Mammillaria matudae label but has the same "problem" as the above plant. It's got the upward pointing central but also a second hooked spine, looking closely at my regular M. matudae I can find a few tubercles with this spination aswell...no more than a handful though.
2 odd ones to Id Dsc00367hm
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Chris43
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Chris43

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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeFri Sep 16, 2011 11:30 am

Hi,
I am not surprised by the hooked spine M. spinosissima, as I have seen example sof this before. I think that it is a variable characteristic of the species. In the latest set of descriptions, in the New Cactus Lexicon, it says "usually straight". So hooked is allowed, but obviously not common. Do you know wher ethe plant came from - I mean originally, not the shop of friend...Smile

But the plant that looks like M. matudae is a first for me to see with hooked spines, except that this in not M. matudae, which is only supposed to have one central spine, your plant clearly has two, one straight and one hooked. Otherwsie it does look very similar to M. matudae.

Has it flowered? if it has that would help identify it. But I'm going to go way out on a limb and wonder if in fact it is a form of M. sheldonii? I have a plant which is quite similar to this, under that name, and which has big pink flowers.


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SnowFella



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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeSat Sep 17, 2011 7:53 am

I'll put the M. spinosissima label back on it then I guess. lol Having doubts about my second spinosissima aswell as it's right now is kicking out a yellow flower. Suspect
Unfortunately I have no idea about it's origin other than who the grower is and they don't really provide that accurate documentation, bought a plant from them the other day that they swore was an Echinocereus but clearly sported the large nude bud of a Gymnocalycium. Laughing

As for the "matudae", it haven't flowered for me as yet (I've only been collecing some 9 months so this is the first spring I've had with these cactii) but it is currently growing buds. Can see one tiny hint of 2 buds about center of the photo. Funny enough my "confirmed" M. matudae from the same grower is also in bud at the moment so give it a week or 2 and I ought to be able to take side by side shots of them.

How big would M. sheldonii stems grow though before they start offsetting, the above plant is nearly 6cm in diameter (not counting spines) and that's plenty more than any of my sheldonii's can boast.
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Chris43
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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeMon Sep 19, 2011 10:13 am

Certainly M. spinosissima shoud not have a yellow flower. I know that there are some white flowered forms of related species, but I've never heard of one on a M. spinosissima.

It does sound a bit fat for M. sheldonii, though one can never be sure.

If you can repost when there are flowers, then we'll try to have another go! In your part of the world, you get to enjoy flowers while all my plants are starting to think of sleeping the cold winter away - at least I hope they are!

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SnowFella



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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeWed Sep 21, 2011 6:19 am

I'll try to stay patient and wait for it to flower, seems the tiny starts of buds that I did have aborted after repotting though.

Here's a photo if what also came as spinosissima but now is churning out small yellow flowers.
2 odd ones to Id Dsc00070mm

Could really be anything judging by earlier labels I've spotted from the same grower.

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Chris43
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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeWed Sep 21, 2011 8:30 am

That looks like either M. mieheana or a form of M. elongata without central spines. Definitely NOT spinosissima!
Indeed that grower seems to have a problem with his/her naming.

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SnowFella



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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeWed Sep 21, 2011 9:21 am

Think their "problem" is that they are geared up towards the bigbox market with supplying 2 of the bigger bigbox stores here downunder. And even though they have links to the NSW cactus society labling their wholesale plants ends up in the hands of one person that only get a few flats of unpotted plants dropped off at his/her station and have to grab whatever labels seems to fit.
More often than not the odd ones out only have a "cactus" label or in the case of some just a genus label but sometimes things end up labeled weirdly. It's turned into a sport for me to walk their seedling benches and picking out the "odd ones out" out of 1000's of staple species. Laughing
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SnowFella



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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeFri Oct 19, 2012 10:33 am

Guess it's time I update this as I've had both plants in bloom this spring.

Here's #1, M. spinosissima inbloom
2 odd ones to Id DSC00138-1

And #2 in bloom, it's since lost it's hook but seem to still be growing 2 centrals.
2 odd ones to Id DSC00177-1
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Chris43
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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeSat Oct 20, 2012 4:05 pm

No. 1 is spinosissima certainly.

No. 2 I'll come back to. It looks vaguely familiar, so need to do some more research.

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delandmo



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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeSat Oct 20, 2012 9:01 pm

Hi All,
Looking back through old material re M. Matudae, which I believe your plant is, Fittkau named some plants of M. Matudae var serpentiformis, which had 2 central spines as forma duocentralis. Nowadays, all the syns. are grouped together as just M. Matudae. M. serpentiformis is no longer recognised. So your 2 central spined plant should be fine called M. Matudae in my opinion.

Regards Derek.
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delandmo



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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeSat Oct 20, 2012 9:08 pm

ps. I'm referring to plant no.2. Plant no. 1 as Chris has stated I'm sure is M. Spinosissima.

Derek.
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delandmo



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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeSun Oct 21, 2012 9:29 pm

Hi SnowFella,

Just to keep the thread going, incase it gets overlooked, did you pick-up on my reply.

Derek.
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Chris43
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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeSun Oct 21, 2012 10:11 pm

I have a M. matudae serpentiformis, and I'll check it in the morning. My image of it is a longer spined form, but a thinner form which would tally with its form name.
Itis just a form, so it is quite likely therefore that the spination does vary quite a bit. There is a plant which Reppenhagen named as M. compacticaulis which Hunt has put into synonomy with M. matudae, and its spination is quite different at first sight.

One has to remember that when a plant is first discovered, the collections tend to be from one locality, and therefore we form a view of a plant based upon that one collection. The reality is that many species do vary, and often quite considerably, over their distribution range, and so plants such as the one we see in the photo might well be M. matudae, but a different form from that which we are familiar with. That is why growing plants with some form of attribution - usually a field collection number - is the best way to go, although the sources of these becomes more specialised.

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delandmo



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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeSun Oct 21, 2012 10:42 pm

Hi Chris,

In my reply to SnowFella I mentioned that Fittkau had named forma duocentralis for specific plants that sported 2 central spines,from the location where M. serpentiformis was found.( Which was in the state of Guerrero at 1150 to 1500 m.) Just to highlight that a 2 spined plant was possible.
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SnowFella



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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeMon Oct 22, 2012 4:03 am

Thanks guys, so I could indeed keep the matudae label for the plant then.

@delandmo: sure did see it but was unable put a reply in yesterday due to a family function.
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Chris43
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PostSubject: Re: 2 odd ones to Id   2 odd ones to Id Icon_minitimeMon Oct 22, 2012 2:57 pm

I MUST read messages properly!

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