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 mammillaria vonwyssiana

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maurillio



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PostSubject: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Mon Mar 21, 2011 5:54 pm

one of the finest collections of mammillaria i've ever seen, is the collection of "giuse" giuseppe ruini.
among others, this plant has greatly intrigued me.
anyone has news of its origins?

mammillaria vonwyssiana

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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:53 pm

Hi Maurillio!

I know is a Mammillaria perbella (Syn.# Mammillaria vonwyssiana Krainz 1945)

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Chris43
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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:13 pm

Yes, that is right apparently. I bought a plant called M. vonwyssiana from a now closed UK nursery in 1991. It is still a small plant but a bit elongated now, but it has never branched or offset, dichotomously or otherwise.

Hunt in his New Review of Mammillaria names said that it hadn't been identified with any naturally occurring species. It was grown from seed collected by Ritter and supplied by to Krainz by Winter in about 1945.

The Cites Checklist mentions the name, but doesn't give it as a synonym of anything - just Mammillaria sp.

It was mentioned as being in cultivation by several growers in the 1960's in the UK, according to the MSJ, and again in 1975 where the article stated that it had been received by the State Succulent Collection in Zurich (ZSS) from a Heer von Rotz of Zug, who had received the seed from Winter. A further mention in 1975 said that Hunt thought that it was close to M. perbella.

He puts the taxon under M. perbella in his article on 'Schumann and Buxbaum reconciled (1)' 1971, but whether he went away from this view isn;t clear.

It was offered in the UK by Ken Burke in the 80's. And in 1992 the MSJ reported that a plant found by Terry Smale, TS351, appeared to be a good fit for M. vonwyssiana. It said "TS351 is Dr.Smale's field number for plants found
growing on volcanic rocks, west of Guadalcazar, San Luis Potosi, at an altitude of 5,600 feet. They are globular, solitary, with 5mm long and wide conical tubercles. These are 20-24 white radial spines, to 5mm long on the sides and to 3mm top and bottom. The central spines, two to four in number, 4mm long, are black fading to buff with black tips. These is
copious white wool near the apex and the flowers are pinkish-purple.". Seed was offered in 1992.

However, Plein and Rogozinski place this taxon as part of the M. parkinsonii-saetigera-klissingiana complex, which could obviously fit with M. perbella as well.

And that's all I have been able to find out. I don't have a plant of TS351, but if anyone does could they please post it in this thread?

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ento



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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Tue Mar 22, 2011 7:16 pm

from Kohres seeds




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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:28 pm

Very nice, Ento. It is a pretty species.

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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:29 pm

Hi!

Amazing plant Ento,the flowers are breathtaking cheers

Regards!
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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:41 am

I have also grown plants of this name from seed from kohres.

I did see some where, which I cannot now remember, that this name was associated with formosa and this is what I have then listed has.
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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:25 am

I am completely ignorant when it comes to this obscure names (and most of the rest, actually...) but I must admit that the look of the plant and the striped flowers are a lot more evocative of Mammillaria formosa than Mammillaria perbella...
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maurillio



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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:31 pm

in my photo, m.vonwyssiana is similar to the photo in pilbeam book "mammillaria".
according with hunt when he says "it hadn't been identified with any naturally occurring species".
the photo of ento is different a lot by mine.
no one think so?
radial spines are shorter, central spines are stronger....
ento's photo remember me m.brauneana.
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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:32 pm

I was in my greenhouse, and checked my old M. vonwyssiana, and collected a few seeds. Then looking more closely at the various M. perbella and the M. formosa plants that I have, I was really struck by the similarity of M. vonwyssiana with M. formosa Rog 326 from Cerritos, SLP. I attach a photo of this in flower last year.



The plants of Rog 326 that I have are wider and flatter thank my vonwyssiana which is slimmer, but that may be the way I grew it back when it was young. It has very similar but slightly longer longer central spines than my vonwyssiana.

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ento



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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:31 pm

I agree with Chris about the similarity of m. vonwyssiana with m. rog 326

Rog 326 last year

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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Sat Mar 26, 2011 10:53 am

Hi!

Maurillio's plant is very different from te prezented plants

Regards!

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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:12 pm

The picture below is ML 099 in habitat from West of Cerritos, SLP and I would say that this is the same plant has Rog 326.
ML 099 is listed has M.brauneana in the Lacoste field list.



I also have some seedlings of CSD 140 from Aramberi to Lampacito, NL. These came named has aff. brauneana from Chris.

I have seen brauneana associated with pseudopebella and in Pilbeam it is associated with klissingiana so there seems to be some confusion has to what brauneana is and it is probably a name best forgotten.
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maurillio



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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:15 pm

punker has hit the target.
ento's plant is similar to rog 326....... ok
but is not similar to maurillio's m.vonwyssiana (that is identical to pilbeam photo n.425 - pag.317 in mammillaria.)
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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:10 pm

I'm sorry, Maurillio, but I do not think that your plant is identical to that shown in Pilbeam (Fig, 424 on P317). It is similar, but the radial spines on the Pilbeam plant are much shorter, and also fewer in number, so that the plant looks more open, and of course, the wool is much denser too, or at least much more visible.

This is the photo from John Pilbeam's book. Apologies for the quality, but the original was quite small.



I could well imagine that Maurillio's plant and the Pilbeam plant are related, but then I think that Rog326 or ML099 are also related, and that all of these are just forms of the same species, and not worthy of a separate name. Personally I would put them as M. formosa, not perbella. I wonder what the source of Koehres seed was?

Tam, you are right, ML099 looks very close to Rog326, and as they both come from Cerritos, then it is likely that they are the same (or very, very similar). So either Lacoste's use of the nam ebrauneana is wrong, or Hunt's referral of this name to klissingiana is wrong. But ML099 is NOT a klissingiana to my way of thinking, much more likely to be formosa. TS351 referred to in my earlier post comes from about 22km from Cerritos, making it quite likely the same.


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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Sat Mar 26, 2011 3:34 pm

Hi!

Maurillio's plant probably is Mammillaria vonwyssiana, we can't do taxonomy just from the pictures, but if you want to know for sure, you can ask Giuseppe some details???

Exemple:

We know the plans seen in the wild are very different from the plants we see in culture, but in culture the plants differ to...

So i have a Mammillaria xxxx and John have the same Mam(Mammillaria xxxx) from the same source, seeds from the same lot, germinated in the same conditions...etc.

I keep my plant on mineral compost, full sun, very cold winter and not so much light...location Romania
John keep his Mam on organic compost, light shade, very warm winter and a lot of light...Location USA

So the plants are the same but will be different...maybe the spines will differ, the flowers...etc

Regards!
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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Sat Mar 26, 2011 7:10 pm

I sowed vonwyssiana seeds by Koehres in 2004, without locality data.
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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Sun Mar 27, 2011 11:44 am

Just to set the record straight.....

John Pilbeam grows his plants in the UK, so cool and usually damp winters, grey skies, and warm but not really hot summers, also rainy at times. Yes, its the British weather!!

It is a shame that Koehres doesn't let customers know the source of his seed. I asked a few times and was told that he didn't have a record of where it came from!

As M. vonwyssiana is not a properly documented name - no type location, no herbarium specimens - it is best forgotton, and these plants consigned to what they really are - all different forms of Mammillaria formosa.

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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Mon Mar 28, 2011 6:51 pm

Hi Chris!

What i sad was just an exemple, Pilbeam is one of the best!!!

My point was, for Mauriillio to ask Giuseppe about that plant, is the best thing,...and plants in culture can look diferent if the conditions are diferent.

Quote :
It is a shame that Koehres doesn't let customers know the source of his seed. I asked a few times and was told that he didn't have a record of where it came from!

Kohres is one of the best! but I agree with you,...and probably he didn't have a record of where it came from...but is the best to know.

With all my respect

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maurillio



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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:10 pm

giuseppe ruini did not know the origins of his plant bought 15 years ago.
we have developed a good discussion and we have seen good pictures.
for me is good to consider them different forms of Mammillaria formosa.
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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:16 pm

Hi!

Problem rezolved cheers cheers cheers

This topic was one of the best topics, and i am happy to be here with all of you.

with all my respect

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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Wed Mar 30, 2011 11:41 am

Today I took a photo of my M. vonwyssiana purchased in 1991, from BradleyBatch Nursery (long closed now) to add to this discussion. I have no way of finding out where the seed that produced this plant came from.




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PostSubject: Re: mammillaria vonwyssiana   Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:59 am

I have about 50 seeds from my plant of M. vonwyssiana if anyone wants them. Only attribution is the source of the plant (Bradley Batch nursery - now closed) and when I bought the plant. PM me if you do, else I'll put them into the Seed Pool fo the BCSS Forum.

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